2005-12-08

Greedy Asians?

Cominganarchy's Curzon alleged that China was greedy a while ago, though it was later founded that one of the key evidence of his allegation was based on a wrong map (the map is via the bad bad me, so I claim full responsibility for the hoax and hope this post would repair the damage). Contrary to the mistake in that map, China never claimed Indonesia's Natuna Island.

Being a Japanophile himself, he is not going to show us this map below, which I fully understand as I recognize his need to pursue the cute Hello Kitties. My English is not good, so I would borrow his words below. I believe (hope) Lord Curzon, as a British gentleman, would not sue me for plagiarism :)
  • "All country’s have “generous” claims, but Japan’s got them all beat with its expansive claims that even include the semi-submerged rock Okinotori, got into dispute with China, Russia and Korea (i.e. every single neighbor it comes across). Not an expansionist power? Peaceful for the past 60 years? They make it hard to think they ain’t." -- plagiarized from Lord Curzon
  • I can also go into the quantification of claimed sea area over land area, # disputed neighbor/#neighbors, historic agression/expansion, or even the claim furthest away from your historic 'mainland', you name it. You know who the winner will be.


Finally, so are Asians greedy? Not really, according this post, or this table. Of course, I can go into the Excel spreadsheet and compare the area/cap occupied (Mongolian probably win, together with Macedonians, but the next few in the lists are not Asians), or occupied area/natural habitat area (British would lead Mongol by a few more streets). I am sure the answers would be similar.

p.s. Our map prodigy Curzon seems to be confused about the Kurils. (Japan renounced the Northern Kurils chain of islets in 1951, and also Southern half of Sakhalin - btw, Sakhalin was owned by Qing Empire and called Ku-ye before taken by Russians, Japanese occupied it after Russo-Japanese War, 1906-1945) Here is the Asiatimes article about the situation, and good maps.
Four islands: Etorofu, Kunashiri, Shikotan, Habomai.
Total area = 5036.0 km2
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10 comments:

Curzon said...

LOL

First, I never said Asians were greedy -- just China!

Second, that map shows what Japan "adminsters," not what it actually claims -- which would include Russian-held Southern Sakhalin and the Kurils.

Third, Japan's claims respect its neighbors; the line between Korea, Japan, China and Russia is drawn at a halfway point. China's claims in the East and South China Sea are incredibly unreasonable, considering the borders of Southeast Asian nations.

Fourth, Japan is an island nation; that it claims more ocean territory than China is as natural as night and day.

Sun Bin said...

1) of course you did.
2) it claims. e.g. okinatori, legitimacy disputed; dokto, soveriegnty disputed and it is under korean control; kurils (which is russian held) is indeed shown in this map.
see the islands NE of hokkaido?
see here
3) you are wrong. it was drawn at its own claimed line, and the line is based on its claim on disputed area......well, everybody does it, as you said, but____.....also as you said in italic above
4) around honshu and kyushu, fine, fine day and night......but building racks at okinotori, not as natural as nights and days. this extension is much more outrageous than south china sea.

cheers :)

Sun Bin said...

curzon,

you really need to study your Japanese geography (or russian geography). of course it is no different from your maps, as all maps published in japan shows these 4 islands.
(those published by China or USA as well, as they do not side with the Russians)

the kurils under russian control are
择捉、国后、色丹、齿舞

Sun Bin said...

(1) i meant to say, of course you did only accuse China.

qgr said...

Curzon said...
>>Fourth, Japan is an island nation; that it claims more ocean territory than China is as natural as night and day.

An island nation has no more right to claim more ocean territory than a continental nation. Unless you are referring to the doctrine of "might makes right." So this point is irrelevant.

A Proud Chinese from Taiwan said...

Curzon,

You said, "Third, Japan's claims respect its neighbors..."

Then explain why Japan has in the past and present in constant territorial conflicts with South Korea over Dokdo Islets, and with Taiwan and China over Diaoyutai Islands. Diaoyutai was part of Taiwan and China, but I am sure you don't want to learn and comprehend it.

denk said...

Curzon’s enterprising forebears fanned out from England to four corners of the world to corner most of the worlds premium properties, from Canada to Australia, new Zealand, America , then took half of mexico, colonized Hawaii, philipines, India etc.,
Even though philipines and India have since achieved independence, till these days curzons brethrens are still sitting on some of the world,s most prized booties.

“UK always amaze me: so bucolically pretty for a rogue nation whose prosperity rides on having beggared half the world! Seldom have so few stolen so much from so many!”
http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/may/28rajeev.htm


The yanks are minding the store these days,.
http://www.mediamonitors.net/leonard28.html

Uncle sham isn’t doing too bad either, adding diego Garcia, Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, iraq to the empire in less then a decade, not bad, not bad at all,
And curzon here is fuming over the greedy Chinese, whose crime is that they stake claim to some islands , two of which, Taiwan and the diaoyu, are properties robbed by curzon’s buddies, the Japanese imperialists. But I see curzon here is all fired up , defending the rights of his poor defenceless Japanese friends against the big bad Chinese bullies.

Tsk tsk tsk
Is there no such word as embarrassment in the man,s vocabulary?

Not that my vocab is anything to boast of though,
As sun bin pointed out, English is not we chinamen’s forte, so I like to use links whenever possible, since one link is worth a thousand words, especially when I don’t think I will ever express myself as eloquently as the writers I quote.

Curzon said...

Sorry, you guys are all wrong, bitter recriminations about Japan, the UK, and the US notwithstanding. My original four points remain correct.

Sun Bin: I believe your statement about Southern Sakhalin and the Kurils is incorrect, which I can't confirm at this time; but for referenec sake, every world map on sale in japan shows Japan in red, Russian in green or blue, and Southern Sakhalin and the Kurils in very distinct white (the only other territories colored as such on the map are the West Bank and Gaza). Point: even if the Japanese government has resigned its claim, it hasn't told its citizens. I'm away from home now but will send you a map when I return this weekend.

Sun Bin said...

Curzon,

South Sakhalin: Japan obtained south sakhalin after russo-japanese war in 1905. renounced it in San Francisco (together with Kuril Islands) in 1951. you raised this point, not I.

I was talking about the 4 southern kuril islands (called northern territories by Japan).
you said the 4 islands shown in the map above are under Japanese control, which is wrong; irrespective of how they were colored in japanese maps.

reference: did you click into the asiatimes article?

denk said...

Curzon said,

First, I never said Asians were greedy -- just China!

---------------

yeah yeah I heard u perfectly,

japan is locked in dispute with china, korea and Russian about the isles, its sitting on one of it, the diaoyu, and is proceeding with formalizing its occupation. But china is the greedy one!

In the south china sea dispute, five governments including the Taiwanese are claiming the rights to some isles, every claimant have occupied some part of the disputed isles, everyone has gotten into skirmishes with every other – but according to your free press and I bet that’s what u think too, china is the “aggressor”.!

The us uk oil consortium continue to play their “great game” today , adding vassal states at the rate of one per year to the empire, while abettin friendly regimes to crush their independent minded “terrorists”
. But when china warns the chen sui bian regime to desist from its independence attempt, china is threatening a “nation”, china is being “expansionist”,

During the sino Japanese row recently, I kept hearing while korea is entitled to feel outrage towards the Japanese hubris, china? Oh china has better clean up its own acts before “meddling in japan’s INTERNAL AFFAIR”

Curzon,

When I was a kid, my teacher told me the idea of fair play originates from England, is it true, mr curzon?

------------

curzon said,

bitter recriminations about Japan, the UK, and the US notwithstanding. My original four points remain correct.

-----------------

“UK always amaze me: so bucolically pretty for a rogue nation whose prosperity rides on having beggared half the world! Seldom have so few stolen so much from so many!”
http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/may/28rajeev.htm

hell such “bitter recriminations” are not even from me,
what I am saying is , u have the gall to call china a greedy nation, now do u get it?